WalterT I am using an iOptron 25P but I did use a GEM45 as well a few months ago. It worked very well too. Did you check what AAP thinks it is pointing at before and after the flip? Perhaps the object was centered before the flip but perhaps AAP thought it was pointing somewhere else? Similar for the mount. Do the coordinates of the mount agree with those of AAP?

    WalterT I followed your advice last time on beefing up my power delivery and destressing my usb cables and I haven’t had any more camera disconnect issues.

    Ah, very good!

    By the way, since I am in constant contact with Pavle (deepskydad), I asked him to print a ring (four of them, three different sizes) to replace my velcro straps. You can see him starting to protoype them here:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QV9MLETaBTA

    Notice that the ring included a threaded hole for me to bolt that small angle bracket that is glued to the USB3 Type B connector, so I won't need that nylon stand off. I think Pavle (most known for his EAF mounts for RedCats and Camera lenses) plans on offering such a thing to the general public. I think a velcro strip is fine, but I wanted something even more secure :-).

    As to the legs, this is what I have under my tri-pier:

    They are standard concrete stepping stones from the local hardware store's gardening department.

    The mount (RST-135) is so tiny, it is hidden by the dual saddle plate, ha ha.

    All electronics, like ASIAIR and an eero mesh router, are inside the gray box. The tri-pier, mount, dual saddle plate and box are left outdoors 24/7 under a waterproof bag. This is on top of a flat garage roof that has easy access from one of the second floor room of the house. I only bring the OTA/camera and guide scope back indoors after use.

    Ha ha, notice that even cables to the EAF are strain relieved :-).

    Chen

      wvreeven Well, before I started the Autorun I did a "Go-to" to M27 and centered it then hit the run button. So I'm assuming it "knew" it was pointing at M27 but I may be wrong. Next time I go out to image, when the weather and smoke from the Canadian fires let up, I'll make a note of what the mount coordinates are and compare them tot he AAP to make sure they match. Thanks for the suggestion.

      w7ay That setup is awesome Chen. Unfortunately I can't place my setup in a permanent spot in my backyard because I have trees plus three of my neighbors houses all around me so I need to move it constantly to make a different small section of the sky visible if I want to image different targets.
      This is the view from the middle of my yard, although this was taken in winter so right now the trees have foliage and cover more than can be seen here.

      Ps. I ordered some 5.5x2.1mm DC pigtails from Amazon and made my own power cables with 16AWG wire but can't help but notice how cheap the pigtails feel, litteraly to the touch, not the austhetics. From your setup from last time your pigtails look pretty solid, did you get those from somewhere or did you buy your cables premade?

      • w7ay replied to this.

        WalterT From your setup from last time your pigtails look pretty solid, did you get those from somewhere or did you buy your cables premade?

        Most (99%) of cables and pigtails from Amazon are junk; they don't work well at room temperature, much less outdoors in the cold. The 18 AWG ones that are sold at Amazon are more like 20 AWG; if you can even find copper in them.

        But I did find a silicone cable from Amazon whose 18AWG really measures 18AWG (the one shown in the picture), and additionally the silicone insulation does not stiffen even a little bit in sub-freezing weather:

        https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0785FJNBJ

        Their paired cables cost 2x per foot compared to the junk.

        I then bought the 2.1mm plugs from Mouser Electronics:

        https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/CUI-Devices/PP3-002AH

        Mouser is a company in Texas that Warren Buffet owns, by the way :-). But DigiKey should also carry similar industrial grade connectors too. At $1.50 a piece, you can buy a bundle of Amazon special pigtails :-). But you really get what you pay for. Some Amazon plugs don't even have a proper spring to retain the center pin of a 2.1mm/5.5mm axial connector. I have bought and threw away a few batches of the Amazon pigtails.

        What you may notice is also a dab of Gorilla Glue to seal off the hole of that plug. (The hole in the connector shell has to be drilled out to take a 18 AWG pair; I just use a tapered hole reamer for 2 or 3 seconds to enlarge the existing hole). The nice thing about Gorilla glue is that it expands and fills up voids when it is curing. Just be sure to check the cable to make sure it didn't short anything out. That then moisture proof the connector somewhat.

        As an (retired) engineer, I go for functionality instead of looks. Like the old Saab saying "Form Follows Function." My equipment usually look utilitarian rather than for taking pretty selfies with. The Facebook crowd probably cannot stand seeing glue ooze out of their connectors :-).

        Chen

          w7ay Thanks. I went ahead and ordered 20 of them, I really don’t want to risk it with the Amazon ones. I filled mine with silicone glue after I screwed on the boot so sounds like I was on the right track.

          I want to take nice pictures of the sky, not of my mount, so I’m good with these 😁

            Hi @WalterT

            I think it may be worth looking at the Autorun_Log on the AAP. It will be in the log folder. The AAP keeps them for I think 12 months before deleting, so it should be there.

            The last autorun I did included a meridian flip, see below.

            As you can see the AAP plate solved twice to confirm the target was centred.
            Even if your mount was not level the plate solves should have corrected the pointing angle and centered the target.
            For me, after the meridian flip the first plate solve showed the mount 1.5° off target, then it corrected.
            I suspect that your plate solve may have failed.

            Check to see if you have anything different in your log.

            2021/07/01 22:58:37 [Guide] Stop Guiding
            2021/07/01 22:58:37 Stop Tracking
            2021/07/01 22:58:37 [Meridian Flip|Begin] Wait 5min12s to Meridian Flip
            2021/07/01 23:03:49 Meridian Flip 1# Start
            2021/07/01 23:03:49 [AutoCenter|Begin] Auto-Center 1#
            2021/07/01 23:03:49 Mount slews to target position: RA:17h21m41s DEC:-35°57'55"
            2021/07/01 23:04:46 Exposure 2s
            2021/07/01 23:04:49 Plate Solve
            2021/07/01 23:04:52 Solve succeeded: RA:17h22m21s DEC:-34°26'58" Angle = 93.5498, Star number = 431
            2021/07/01 23:04:52 [AutoCenter|End] Too far from center, distance = 263%(1.52195°)
            2021/07/01 23:04:53 [AutoCenter|Begin] Auto-Center 2#
            2021/07/01 23:04:53 Mount slews to target position: RA:17h21m41s DEC:-35°57'55"
            2021/07/01 23:04:59 Exposure 2s
            2021/07/01 23:05:03 Plate Solve
            2021/07/01 23:05:06 Solve succeeded: RA:17h21m45s DEC:-35°55'2" Angle = 93.5515, Star number = 746
            2021/07/01 23:05:06 [AutoCenter|End] The target is centered
            2021/07/01 23:05:06 [Meridian Flip|End] Meridian Flip succeeded
            2021/07/01 23:05:06 Start Tracking
            2021/07/01 23:05:06 Wait for Mount Settle
            2021/07/01 23:05:11 Start Tracking

            Steve

              StevenEvan Hi Steve, thanks for the reply. I did include a link to my log in the OP and it reads that the flip and auto center were successful, that's what is so confusing:

              2021/07/05 01:53:32 Stop Tracking
              2021/07/05 01:53:33 [Meridian Flip|Begin] Wait 7min8s to Meridian Flip
              2021/07/05 02:00:41 Meridian Flip 1# Start
              2021/07/05 02:00:41 [AutoCenter|Begin] Auto-Center 1#
              2021/07/05 02:00:41 Mount slews to target position: RA:20h0m22s DEC:+22°25'54"
              2021/07/05 02:01:26 Exposure 2s
              2021/07/05 02:01:30 Plate Solve
              2021/07/05 02:01:32 Solve succeeded: RA:20h2m47s DEC:+21°51'36" Angle = -93.4837, Star number = 600
              2021/07/05 02:01:33 [AutoCenter|End] Too far from center, distance = 146%(0.800415°)
              2021/07/05 02:01:34 [AutoCenter|Begin] Auto-Center 2#
              2021/07/05 02:01:34 Mount slews to target position: RA:20h0m22s DEC:+22°25'54"
              2021/07/05 02:01:39 Exposure 2s
              2021/07/05 02:01:42 Plate Solve
              2021/07/05 02:01:46 Solve succeeded: RA:20h0m29s DEC:+22°25'46" Angle = -93.4943, Star number = 471
              2021/07/05 02:01:46 [AutoCenter|End] The target is centered
              2021/07/05 02:01:46 [Meridian Flip|End] Meridian Flip succeeded
              2021/07/05 02:01:46 Start Tracking

                WalterT Hi Steve, thanks for the reply. I did include a link to my log in the OP and it reads that the flip and auto center were successful, that's what is so confusing:

                Sorry, you're right. I should have read your first post more carefully.

                I would like to do an online plate solve on the 2 images to confirm the RA/DEC values . The 2 images attached to your first post are too small to process. Can you possibly put both on google drive for me?

                Alternatively, you can go to https://nova.astrometry.net/upload/ and upload the images and let me know the plate solve results. Just to double check the AAP got the plate solve correct.

                Steve.

                  Walter, something is rotten in the state of Denmark (with apologies to Shakespeare :-).

                  Notice that the camera angle for the two frames did not change! Did you really observed that your mount actually performed a Meridian Flip?

                  Notice that asterisms of the stars around M27 all stayed in the same orientation. A Meridian flip should have reversed the RA axis (or both RA and Dec axis on some mounts).

                  For a sanity check, check the Meridian Limit of your mount to make sure it is compatible with the two times that you have set in the ASIAIR auto meridian flip options.

                  Take the scope out for a spin using common stars (or just virtual coordinates; which is what I usually use to test transits) as targets, so you don't have to wait for M27 to transit. Watch the mount, and also plate solve for the "before" and "after" camera angles.

                  The ASIAIR should be set to stop tracking (start auto meridian process) before the Meridian Limit that you have set for your mount, and should not perform the flipping GOTO until after passing the Meridian Limit of your mount. Add in errors of east-west leveling to the bounds.

                  Good luck,
                  Chen

                    w7ay Hi Chen, I actually didn't see the mount flip, when I woke up it was already at the home location and ASIAIR was shutdown. However, the same thing happened last night... good images until the time of the flip then nothing but star trails for the rest of the night.
                    I think the mount is flipping because I just now aligned the pictures manually in GIMP to see how the matched up and the image from after the meridian is rotated 180° compared to the ones before. This is how they compare:

                    Also, from looking at the rest of the log it looks like the mount "thinks" it flipped successfully and that it restarted tracking and guiding and that life is great.

                    2021/07/05 02:01:46 [Meridian Flip|End] Meridian Flip succeeded
                    2021/07/05 02:01:46 Start Tracking
                    2021/07/05 02:01:46 Wait for Mount Settle
                    2021/07/05 02:01:56 [Guide] ReSelect Guide star
                    2021/07/05 02:01:58 [Guide] Start Calibrating
                    2021/07/05 02:02:57 [Guide] Calibrate Success
                    2021/07/05 02:02:58 [Guide] Guide Settle
                    2021/07/05 02:03:28 [Guide] Settle Done
                    2021/07/05 02:03:28 Exposure 600S image 4#
                    2021/07/05 02:13:29 [Guide] Dither
                    2021/07/05 02:13:29 [Guide] Dither Settle
                    2021/07/05 02:13:57 [Guide] Settle Done
                    ....

                    If it remains clear tonight I'm going to setup up again and test it as you suggested by doing a test flip and also set my alarm to wake up and see what is really happening and let you know.

                    • w7ay replied to this.

                      WalterT I think the mount is flipping because I just now aligned the pictures manually in GIMP to see how the matched up and the image from after the meridian is rotated 180° compared to the ones before. This is how they compare:

                      Oh, OK, I was looking at the wrong thing.

                      So, it flipped but the image that it took was at a different location of the flipped plate solve? Weird.

                      Star trailing after a flip is not a good symptom, either.

                      Yeah, try a manual meridian flip. Don't use AutoRun. GOTO a coordinate just east of the Meridian. Take a plate and solve it. Wait until 1 or 2 minutes before transit and turn off tracking.

                      Now wait for coordinate to move past the Meridian (transit time is when RA == Local Sidereal Time), then execute another GOTO to exactly the same coordinate as the original GOTO.

                      Depending on your east-west leveling, it make take some time (4 minutes per degree of level) before the mount actually moves.

                      After the mount has flipped, take another plate and solve. Compare the solved RA and Dec with the GOTO RA and Dec.

                      Then do a Sync And Goto, and take yet another plate. Did the mount move in the correct direction to correct for the mechanical error?

                      The above might give us a clue what went wrong.

                      Personally, I avoid all the "auto" stuff in ASIAIR. I do my own sync-and-goto after each plate solve, I do manual meridian flip, and I measure HFD with the Detect Star tool to create my own V-curve with a program I wrote for macOS to set the EAF (using hyperbolic curve fit instead of the parabolic curve fit that ZWO uses), etc.

                      Chen

                      Well, it has been cloudy here for days and I'm through processing the last clear nights subs, so I have some time on my hands. I'm also interested in this as I've also, just once, had this happen to me. I should have looked into it then but didn't.

                      So I'll try to make some conclusions from subs 03 and 04, before MF (meridian flip) and after MF.

                      There are 3 question:

                      1. Did the MF actually happen?
                      2. Did the AAP plate solve correctly after the MF?
                      3. Why is M27 not centered?

                      1. Did the MF actually happen?
                      I ran both sub 03 and 04 through a online plate solver and the appended images are:

                      Sub 03

                      Sub 04

                      The star HD 189657 location does change in reference to the M27 and the image frame.
                      So Yes, the MF took place

                      2. Did the AAP plate solve correctly after the MF?
                      This is interesting. Sub 04 plate solve shows the image center as:
                      RA: 19h 59m 32.945s Dec:+22° 22' 13.348"
                      The actual location of M27 (in AAP database) is:
                      RA: 20h 0m 6s DEC+22° 46' 53"

                      Given that the pixel scale is 0.47 arcsec/pixel this means that M27 should be roughly 3000px left or right of center and around 70 pixels up/down. Which is what we see in the image.

                      The interesting thing is that this is where AAP believed the center to be.
                      In your log is shows that after MF the AAP believes the target is at:
                      RA: 20h0m22s DEC:+22°25'54"
                      and tried to plate solve to this RA/DEC and it succeeded within around 400 pixels.

                      In short, the plate solves after MF ended up at the location that AAP was looking for.
                      So also Yes, AAP plate solved to this location correctly. It got to the location where it thought the image was centered.

                      3. Why is M27 not centered?
                      So what we have here is AAP not knowing the correct image center. During MF it used an image center that was not correct. It didn't go the the wrong RA/DEC, it just didn't know that you had M27 in the image center.

                      Assuming that this is not a software bug in AAP then I can think of one way this may happen.
                      I GOTO M27, its not centered so I use plate solve and SYNC to update the AAP RA/DEC.
                      I then move the mount some way that AAP doesn't know about, maybe the mount hand controller to center M27 in the image. (Note that AAP is not aware that the image center has changed.)
                      I begin AutoRun.
                      MF happens and AAP GOTO and plate solve is going to go to the original RA/DEC, not the centered image location.

                      Does that all make sense?

                      Steve

                        If you use the hand controller to center to a certain position then that very well may explain why the centering is "off" after the meridian flip. AAP is leading in the position that the mount points at.
                        I wasn't aware of this until I read another comment of Chen to another thread, but you can tap (or click) at a position in an image taken with AAP and then click GoTo to center a certain position. I'd advice you to do that next time you want to center an object because that way AAP at least knows what position the mount should be pointing at.

                        • w7ay replied to this.

                          wvreeven next time you want to center an object because that way AAP at least knows what position the mount should be pointing at.

                          Personally, I do not use that feature myself :-). I use the coordinates from SkySafari (one of the few instances I find SkySafari useful; I can do without the eye candy otherwise), for example, find a coordinate between M81 and M82, and enter that into the mini-GOTO window in ASIAIR -- which you can also save as a Favorites if you want to go to the same location in the future; I have a BodesNebulas entry :-).

                          Heck, I don't even use the ASIAIR Auto-Center function. I do my own rinse-and-repeat plate-solve-Sync-And-GOTO-capture-new-image, since ASIAIR's auto-center is very coarse; perhaps only good enough for people who don't know any better.

                          Chen

                          Yes that's a possibility as well. I use SkySafari as well and that works really well. SkySafari sends position commands to AAP which then commands the mount which is why this works very well. My point was that using the hand controller probably doesn't work if the AAP is leading in "knowing" the position that the mount is pointed at.

                          WalterT I filled mine with silicone glue after I screwed on the boot so sounds like I was on the right track.

                          By the way Walter (at least I have no fear of hijacking this thread, since it is yours :-), if you mean the Silicone RTV, that is fantastic material. Another material that resulted from the NASA space initiatives, I think. And yes, they are electrically inert after curing.

                          I use RTV in a number of places too, for both of my hobbies. (My newfound favorite "glue" is the Bondic UV curing stuff :-).

                          Back in grad school the early 1970s, I was involved with an (US) NSF project for remote satellite based weather sensors for deployment to the Antarctica (they transmitted data autonomously to Nimbus and Tiros low-earth orbit satellites that dumped the data when they passed Alaska).

                          We used the RTV to hold down wiring, and as far as I know, it held up for decades. I had seen temperatures below -40ºC transmitted back when we were monitoring it, before handling the system to hardcore weather researchers; Antarctica used to be a void of data for global weather modeling. I was with the school's Radar Astronomy group -- we did radio, not weather :-).

                          Chen

                          w7ay 1 degree in the east-west direction will cause the mount to think the target crosses the Meridian either 4 minutes

                          StevenEvan I GOTO M27, its not centered so I use plate solve and SYNC to update the AAP RA/DEC.
                          I then move the mount some way that AAP doesn't know about, maybe the mount hand controller to center M27 in the image. (Note that AAP is not aware that the image center has changed.)
                          I begin AutoRun.

                          Guys, thank you very much for all of the great tips. A lot of the things you guys analyzed are way over my head but based on your feedback I think I narrowed it down to either a leveling problem or a problem of me re-centering the image manually after the ASIAIR go-to, or both. So when getting ready for imaging I create my Autorun plan, search for my object in the AAP, and hit the go-to button. The AAP will slew to the target, plate-solve 1 or 2 times and then settle when it thinks the target is centered. Most of the time the target is not centered so I manually move my target to the center as Steven said, then start guiding, then start my Autorun. So obviously, as Steven mentioned, if my Autorun includes a MF then it will go to were it had originally thought the center was and not to where I moved it afterwards.
                          Also, I pretty much took it as a given that my mount was not perfectly leveled, but I assumed that a little error wouldn't be a big deal since I have plate solving and guiding. But, going off what Chen said that just a degree off on leveling can cause up to 4 minutes in discrepancy I can see how that could cause big problems.
                          So last night I put the mount on bricks and off the grass, it's all I have on hand right now, and did my best to level it with the cheapo bubble level built into the mount. I also went to my mount Meridian settings and changed the times to stop tracking and flip after from 1 minute to 5 minutes, just to give objects more time to pass the meridian to compensate for errors in my leveling. I tested the system by running a test run on Vega. When the mount settled on Vega it was not centered but it was not too bad I would say about 1/8 of the width of the sensor away from the cross-hairs. So I just left it and ran it and it worked, it flipped after 10 minutes and it settled on the other side in the same slightly off center Vega. I did the same thing for my Autorun of M27, and this was one of the rare times when the AAP actually put the object in the exact center of the frame so I was not tempted to make any manual adjustments. I run the sequence and woke up to a successful meridian flip. So in short, either my leveling error or my re-centering the frame manually after the AAP auto-center or my MF timing settings were causing the problem. I'll just need to incorporate these things into my routine from now on, which is a lot less hassle than waking up to half a night of ruined subs.

                          Here are the low-res thumbnails of image from before and after the flip.

                          ps. You got it Chen, RTV silicone. We sell a lot of Permatex products at work so I get a good discount on the stuff :

                          • w7ay replied to this.

                            WalterT a leveling problem or a problem of me re-centering the image manually after the ASIAIR go-to ... Most of the time the target is not centered so I manually move my target to the center as Steven said, then start guiding, then start my Autorun

                            Don't do that with your hand controller, Walter. And if you do it from the ASIAIR directional buttons, you would need to sync the information back to the mount.

                            If you want to see what people go through leveling their mounts, take a look at this YouTube video (I have the same mount).

                            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7IC1j8i-1H4

                            I use a two axis inclinometer (with 0.01º precision, but don't know what its accuracy is), so I don't have to keep moving the inclinometer's orientation around :-).

                            Good luck.
                            Chen