New version of ZWO ASI1600MM-COOL?: Page 2

New version of ZWO ASI1600MM-COOL?

bigappleskies

SparkyHT wrote:
So I was just told by ZWO over email that I would have to sell my camera, and they would give me a $200 coupon towards buying a new one. How am I supposed to sell my now rendered defective and obsolete camera on the used market and get any kind of money for it? In under the course of a year, you fixed some pretty fatal flaws in the hardware, but left us early adopters behind with no path to make it right. I would gladly buy and install a kit if you offered one, but you don't. If I have to sell my camera to buy another one that doesn't fog up and put dusty crystals all over the AR window, I will just buy a QHY163m. Lousy way to treat your customers.

I understand the frustration, but as someone who has had the original ASI1600MM for almost a year (got it at NEAF last year) - I do not begrudge Sam leaving me behind with the new upgraded cameras. This is technology. I remember the Iphone 4S came out like 3 months after I had bought a 4. I paid full retail. I was annoyed... but its technology. Progress is a given and feature improvements is a given... I still have my $4,000 50" Plasma TV I bought about 14 years ago... That TV costs like $299 now...

Sam@ZWO

thanks for your guys' understanding!

souls33k3r

Sorry Sam a quick question.

What are the best practices to keep the camera in proper working order for a long time and potentially keep it dust/dew free. Does it require regular maintenance? if so what would be that?

I ask all this because i really keep my belongings in a nice working order and in mint condition.

Thanks

cwalter

BigAppleSkies wrote:

Progress is a given and feature improvements is a given...

Hello BigAppleSkies,

i agree to you if we talk about feature improvments like the usb hub, but i don't when we talk about fixes - for example the dew problem. Main feature of this camera (the -c version) is that it is cooled and problems with dew are so obvious that they should be excluded by design at the first version of the camera and this should be tested in depth. This has not be done. So i think that we have an other situation as with your iphone...

Best regards,

Christian

Sam@ZWO

souls33k3r wrote:
Sorry Sam a quick question.

What are the best practices to keep the camera in proper working order for a long time and potentially keep it dust/dew free. Does it require regular maintenance? if so what would be that?

I ask all this because i really keep my belongings in a nice working order and in mint condition.

Thanks

keep it in a Drying oven is the best way

such like other DSLR, lens

ozy

Sam wrote:
yes, all our cooled cameras are V3 now

https://astronomy-imaging-camera.com/products/usb-3-0/asi1600mc-cool/

This applies to all cameras? I'm about to pull the trigger on an ASI224MC-Cool & ASI290MM-Cool from OPTCORP. Will they have all V3 versions of these cameras?

Sam@ZWO

Ozy wrote:
Sam wrote:yes, all our cooled cameras are V3 now

https://astronomy-imaging-camera.com/products/usb-3-0/asi1600mc-cool/

This applies to all cameras? I'm about to pull the trigger on an ASI224MC-Cool & ASI290MM-Cool from OPTCORP. Will they have all V3 versions of these cameras?

there is no change with other cooled cameras yet

other cameras all have very small sensor and won't have dew problem of protect window

ozy

Sam wrote:
Ozy wrote:
Sam wrote:yes, all our cooled cameras are V3 now

https://astronomy-imaging-camera.com/products/usb-3-0/asi1600mc-cool/

This applies to all cameras? I'm about to pull the trigger on an ASI224MC-Cool & ASI290MM-Cool from OPTCORP. Will they have all V3 versions of these cameras?

there is no change with other cooled cameras yet

other cameras all have very small sensor and won't have dew problem of protect window

How can I tell if these cameras from OPT at least have the new AmpGlow fix, specifically on the ASI224MC? I was told on CloudyNights that I have to disassemble them and inspect the version number on the boards to tell. I'm unsure if this fix was applied to the ASI290MM.

krazycanuck2011

Well I have to disagree with the gent that said technology ages, this camera is still within the two year timeframe and clearly exhibits design issues from the factory. My version 2 was sent with dissicent tablets in a sealed bag, I have no clue on how one would use them by themselves without the tube which was not included, and my camera had a flange with no tube hole. I am experiencing extreme dewing / frost issues, and clearly ZWO / Sam are aware of this hence v3. I've brought this to ZWO's attention, and no response.

I feel for an expensive purchase such as this, and quite frankly the customers that help support this product to benefit ZWO, ZWO should send us the flange and dissicent tube to replace the front of the camera ourselves if they don't want to deal with it rather than a coupon. I feel this is only right, as we helped promote this camera on many forums. After seeing the dewing / frost issues, ZWO places a fix out, and now they are telling us to sell the camera (which has problems) and than buy a new one. That only goes to show that they are not thinking about the poor guy that you sell the camera to used and how it will affect the individual buyer / seller's relationship going forward.

Quoting ZWO's warranty

Warranty and Return Policy

- We provide 2-year warranty for our products, we will offer the repair service for free or replace for free if the camera doesn’t work within warranty period. After the warranty period, we will continue to provide repair support and service on a charged basis.

- This warranty does not apply to damage that occurred as a result of abuse or misuse, or caused by a fall or any other transportation failures after purchase.

- Customer must pay for shipping when shipping the camera back for repair or replacement

- If you get a faulty camera, please contact us as soon as possible though email: info@zwoptical.com. Please describe the problem in detail and we will do our best to help you solve the problem. Most instances perceived problems are simply bad driver install or software configuration.

- For customers who bought the camera from our dealer, dealer is responsible for the customer service for you."

Based upon the information above, I can clearly state that I fall within the 2 year warranty window (purchased in July 2016) - the camera clearly has a design defect from the factory (dewing / frosting of the sensor window) - due to no dissicent tube which was on the initial product ad when I purchased it, and when I received the camera, I received a bag with a few dissicent tablets in it and I had to where to place the tablets as i had no tube....

Sam I am expecting ZWO to pony up and do right on this one. I was not an early adopter and I did expect the dessicent tube on the camera on my version. I can pay to ship the camera back to Ontario Telescope, but I do expect the new flange / tube to be installed to stop the dewing / frosting up issues.

I have about 15 people in my local RASC club/community which are watching the response to this issue as they looking at doing a large ZWO or QHY order and feel the same as I do after hearing about the product without the original disscient tube on it once received. They are awaiting a response from me at our next RASC meeting in a week from now as they asked me to report back to the group on the next meeting. This could affect your sales from a number of these individuals...

Anyhow, I am asking to be done right. I'm watched this group and stayed fairly quiet and tried to go the correct route with this to no avail.

notty

SparkyHT wrote:
So I was just told by ZWO over email that I would have to sell my camera, and they would give me a $200 coupon towards buying a new one. How am I supposed to sell my now rendered defective and obsolete camera on the used market and get any kind of money for it? In under the course of a year, you fixed some pretty fatal flaws in the hardware, but left us early adopters behind with no path to make it right. I would gladly buy and install a kit if you offered one, but you don't. If I have to sell my camera to buy another one that doesn't fog up and put dusty crystals all over the AR window, I will just buy a QHY163m. Lousy way to treat your customers.

I agree entirely, and I am definitely falling victim to the condensation issue. Yes technology is a dynamic environment but rushing out such fundamental revisions so frequently and early in the life of a product can only be seen as bug fixing resulting from insufficient testing, NOT evolutionary product improvement. Trying to frame them as "improvements" is disingenuous. Those of us who've been used as unpaid beta testers deserve better.

krazycanuck2011

Notty wrote:
SparkyHT wrote:So I was just told by ZWO over email that I would have to sell my camera, and they would give me a $200 coupon towards buying a new one. How am I supposed to sell my now rendered defective and obsolete camera on the used market and get any kind of money for it? In under the course of a year, you fixed some pretty fatal flaws in the hardware, but left us early adopters behind with no path to make it right. I would gladly buy and install a kit if you offered one, but you don't. If I have to sell my camera to buy another one that doesn't fog up and put dusty crystals all over the AR window, I will just buy a QHY163m. Lousy way to treat your customers.

I agree entirely, and I am definitely falling victim to the condensation issue. Yes technology is a dynamic environment but rushing out such fundamental revisions so frequently and early in the life of a product can only be seen as bug fixing resulting from insufficient testing, NOT evolutionary product improvement. Trying to frame them as "improvements" is disingenuous. Those of us who've been used as unpaid beta testers deserve better.

Fully agree with you both...

Sam@ZWO

Hello guys

condensation on protect window will happen at 100% humidity environment

that's why we write the specification of the camera like this:

Working Relative Humidity: 20%—80%

our V3 is just better, maybe 90%humidity enviroment

you won't solve the problem after updating to V3

anyway, we are trying to provide one solution

but the solution is still not ready

so please wait patiently

krazycanuck2011

Please tell us the solution you are working on, and how you intend to help all your customers that have issues. The 071MC has a heated window - if you are making revision 4 and asking us all to sell our cameras to buy a rev 4 with a heated window, that really doesn't cut it for us as customers of yours....

chripell

First all I would like to spend a good word for Zwo. I really think that, without their innovations, the cost of astronomical cams would be much much higher (it is not cheap, I agree, but just compare with the situation a couple of years ago; or with the cost of a consumer cameras, where there is still basically a monopoly of big names). I hope that discussions like this (fsck, I bought my costly astrothing 1y ago, now with the new version it lost its value) don't backfire and stop progress.

I am an owner of a v1 ASI1600MC (I must honestly admit that 365astronomy offered some discount by noting it is the older version with ST4 port, the retailers who don't do it, until stocks are cleared, are the really dishonest people) and had 2 nights ruined by dew (especially once it was even on the sensor) and ATM I am, unfortunately, based in one of the most humid part of the world, Ireland. But, I experienced it much more times on the Newton secondary and front lenses. I somehow mitigated by:

1) cooling to -15C instead -30C. Now I need to subtract darks, there are more hot pixels. But, from the graphs, the thermal noise should be << read noise and, thanks to repeatability, I acquired the darks just once and with a lot of frames for low shot noise.

2) I put an anti-dew heater for 2" eyepices around the nose of the cam.

That said, I'm really looking forward for better solutions from Zwo. Their customer support never let me down and I have no reasons to think it will now. And well, because I am thinking of buying a MM camera, a 200$ discount will be much appreciated :-p.

Just to not sound too positive (I have no affiliation with Zwo), what I hate is that their drivers are not Open Source. And even more I hate the fact that the sensor manufacturers don't publish data sheets, at least from the source code we could understand the register map and such. I prefer scientifically correct results to nice pictures to showcase on astrobin.

sparkyht

krazycanuck2011 wrote:
Notty wrote:
SparkyHT wrote:So I was just told by ZWO over email that I would have to sell my camera, and they would give me a $200 coupon towards buying a new one. How am I supposed to sell my now rendered defective and obsolete camera on the used market and get any kind of money for it? In under the course of a year, you fixed some pretty fatal flaws in the hardware, but left us early adopters behind with no path to make it right. I would gladly buy and install a kit if you offered one, but you don't. If I have to sell my camera to buy another one that doesn't fog up and put dusty crystals all over the AR window, I will just buy a QHY163m. Lousy way to treat your customers.

I agree entirely, and I am definitely falling victim to the condensation issue. Yes technology is a dynamic environment but rushing out such fundamental revisions so frequently and early in the life of a product can only be seen as bug fixing resulting from insufficient testing, NOT evolutionary product improvement. Trying to frame them as "improvements" is disingenuous. Those of us who've been used as unpaid beta testers deserve better.

Fully agree with you both...

Well, I'm glad someone agrees with me. I was pretty much told to "deal with it" on another forum when I squawked about it. Sorry, but I'm not going to deal with it. This is unacceptable and I want it made right. Hopefully a proper solution will come before we're all told "sorry, your 2 years are up". I may just cut my losses and go with QHY if I don't see some progress.

cwalter

SparkyHT wrote:

Well, I'm glad someone agrees with me. I was pretty much told to "deal with it" on another forum when I squawked about it. Sorry, but I'm not going to deal with it. This is unacceptable and I want it made right. Hopefully a proper solution will come before we're all told "sorry, your 2 years are up". I may just cut my losses and go with QHY if I don't see some progress.

Hello,

i also agree with you and posted that already:

" Main feature of this camera (the -c version) is that it is cooled and problems with dew are so obvious that they should be excluded by design at the first version of the camera and this should be tested in depth..."

... and Sam. You wrote that "that's why we write the specification of the camera like this:

Working Relative Humidity: 20%—80%" So you realy want to say that this camera might won't work nearly half the year in Germany?:

Luftfeuchtigkeit.JPG

Best regards,

Christian

buckeyestargazer

Sam wrote:

we can provide a special discount for all old 1600 user who wish to upgrade

but there is no modification service as the full camera body changed.

I think I know the answer to this, but if I bought a used v2 ASI1600MM-cool and wanted to upgrade to the v3 camera, could I get the discount?

ross g

I bought both the 1600MM-C and 1600MC-C when they first came out and therefore am also a bit concerned at the number of changes in such a short time.

One of the earlier posts asked about sensor tilt...I noticed it was "ignored" in the answer.

I have had both cameras for nearly a year but due to bad weather, have only been able to use them a few times.

These cameras were to replace my QHY8L and QHY9.

I have noticed possible evidence of 1. sensor tilt, 2. internal reflections and 3. elongated stars in 2 corners (..hopefully only due to the sensor tilt..).

When replacing the 1600MC camera with the QHY8L on the same setup, these issues seem to not be there, even though the QHY8L has a larger chip.

Now, I have to say that I have not been able to do enough tests yet to be certain, but the evidence seems to be there.

Has any one else experienced similar problems?

The fact that sensor tilt was ignored in the previous answers has made me suspicious.

Has version 3 addressed any of these "possible" issues.

I have big plans for these two new cameras and would be very disappointed if I found that they do have problems and because of the few dark nights here in Sydney, the warranty has finished.

Thank you.

Ross.

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